MSNBC Tucker-Transcript

Interview

MSNBC Tucker-Transcript

CARLSON: Despite sagging national poll numbers, President Bush still has political allies in his struggling Iraq War policy. It‘s his proposed immigration legislation that more than any other issue has divided his own party. The question is, is the split within the Republican Party terminal? Joining us now, the chairman of the Republican Party, and also U.S. senator from the state of Florida, Mel Martinez.

Senator, thanks for coming on.

SEN. MEL MARTINEZ (R-FL), RNC CHMN.: Hey, Tucker, good to see you.

CARLSON: On Tuesday the president, while making the case for this immigration bill, said this. He said: "I‘m sure you‘ve heard some talk out there of people defining the bill. It‘s clear to me they haven‘t read the bill. They‘re speculating on what the bill says. They‘re trying to rile up people‘s emotions."

In other words, the president is saying, if you disagree with the legislation, you‘re either uninformed, you‘re dumb, you haven‘t bother to read it, or you‘re a demagogue and you‘re trying to whip people into a frenzy. It doesn‘t seem like he leaves room for an honest disagreement with his position.

MARTINEZ: Well, I think there is room for an honest disagreement. But here is the point. I think there has been an awful lot of rush to judgment on this bill. I recall a lot of people saying "amnesty, amnesty" before they had an opportunity to read the bill.

And I think what it is, is that he and I both happen to have a strong opinion that this bill is not amnesty, that it does a lot to secure the border, which comes first, and also an internal enforcement by requiring an employment verification card which is going to be tamper-proof.

So those things come first before any talk of legalizing anyone, which there isn‘t a path to citizenship—an automatic path to citizenship. So all of these things frankly seem to get overlooked as people just rush to say "amnesty, amnesty."

CARLSON: OK. Well, you are making an affirmative case for the bill. And I think that‘s great. That‘s what thoughtful people do. They take their position and they explain it. This president‘s M.O. is not to explain things, but to just say, I am right, you are wrong.

He said this, if you want to kill this bill, if you don‘t want to do what is right for America, you‘re against this bill, you‘re against America. Now the White House has come out and said, oh, we weren‘t claiming the enemies of the bill are unpatriotic. But that‘s in effect what the president is saying.

Why doesn‘t he bother to explain the bill rather than attack people who don‘t like it?

MARTINEZ: Well, I was there with him when he gave that talk and he did explain his position on the bill and explained the bill much as I‘ve done with you here today. But I think the fact of the matter is, the president is incredibly passionate about this issue.

It is something that he understands in his being. He grew up in Texas. He has been around this issue all of his life. He knows it as a governor. And I think he‘s very passionate about it.

And so I think at the end of the day, we need to understand that this is an issue that is divisive by the nature of the issue and the president has taken a courageous and strong position, trying to lead not only the country but also his party on a tough issue, one that is difficult.

And by the way, I don‘t know that it is a matter of isolation. I think at the end of the day—at the end of next week when this bill is voted on in the Senate, more than half the Republicans in the Senate will vote for this bill, I think. And I think that will be a surprisingly strong vote.

CARLSON: Well, what is striking to me though is the most vocal criticism of this legislation comes from the president‘s own supporters—or would-be supporters—or former supporters, his base, conservative Republicans, the people who put him in office twice, really the last people in the country who tell pollsters they like him.

And he comes out there and says, if you‘re against this bill, you don‘t want to do what is right for America. He seems to be almost intentionally picking a fight with the only people who like him. Why would he do that?

MARTINEZ: No. I think what he is trying to do is to persuade. I think he is trying to let people know how strongly he feels about the issue. And I don‘t think he was trying to make that comment in the way that it has been interpreted.

I don‘t think it was intended to be either you‘re with me or you don‘t understand what is good for America. I think what he was saying essentially is, I feel so strongly that this is the right thing for America, that this is a difficult thing for people to get their arms around, but it is right thing for our country.

At the end of the day, Tucker, I think this issue is as divisive as can be. There are Republicans that don‘t like it. There are Republicans who do like it. And there are Democrats who like it and Democrats who don‘t like it. It‘s just a tough, divisive issue.

CARLSON: But you—I mean, as the—you‘re the head of the Republican Party, so you of course spend your life thinking about questions like this and you‘re obviously familiar with what the head of the party in Arizona has reported, that all of these Republicans that came into Republican Party headquarters in Arizona and ripped up their registration cards—I‘m becoming an independent, they said.

He‘s claiming they‘re losing a lot of Republican voters in that state over this issue, do you believe him? Is that a problem?

MARTINEZ: No. I don‘t believe him. I‘m sure that we lost some support. There is no question. But I think overall, frankly, you know, when you‘re going to take a sample anecdotally, that doesn‘t really tell you the story.

I think we need to look at the polling. When you look at polls, over two-thirds of Americans support this position.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But what about conservative—what about primary-voting Republicans? Do they.

MARTINEZ: I think, frankly—I think this is a divided house and I think there is a small minority that doesn‘t agree within the Republican Party. I think a vast majority of Republicans understand it. This is a difficult problem that we‘re trying to do the very best we can to solve a difficult problem.

And frankly what is really absent is, what is the alternative? What else would people suggest we do in order to solve this problem?

One of the things the president said, frankly, is that it is simply impractical to deport 12 million people. It‘s just not going to happen, Tucker. Come up with an answer. What is your solution? You‘re not for the bill. You don‘t like it. Tell me what it is you think we should do.

What is the thoughtful approach that is going to unite America, that is going to solve a problem of a 20-year old broken down immigration system?

CARLSON: Well, I would actually punish employers for real who hire illegal aliens, I mean, actually punish them.

MARTINEZ: But that was suggested.

CARLSON: And I would build a border wall and I would stop complaining about how it‘s not possible. We‘re spending billions upon billions in this war in Iraq. I don‘t know, it seems to me we could secure our borders in a more genuine way.

And I‘d also make illegal aliens pay their taxes, something you all don‘t think they need to do.

MARTINEZ: No, the Senate last week moved an amendment so they would pay their back taxes and we are building a wall, 370 miles of it and more if needed, 200 miles of vehicle barrier, 18,000 Border Patrol agents, drones and electronic surveillance and other ways as well.

We‘re securing the border, Tucker. This is happening as we speak. It has been happening. The Department of Homeland Security says in 18 months they‘ll have essentially a secure border.

And at the end of the day, none of the other aspects of this bill come into effect until the border is secure.

CARLSON: OK. Mel Martinez, senator from Florida, head of the Republican Party, I appreciate you coming on, Senator, thanks.

MARTINEZ: Thank you, bye.

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